Re: Is there Three Persons In One?
I’m really only remaining in this discussion at this point as an exercise in continuing to learn how to support my beliefs with Scripture. I’m not terribly concerned with whether I convince you of my argument, and I’m certain that you’re not going to convince me of yours (your prayers for my enlightenment not withstanding). With that said….
All persons of the Trinity are active and shown at the time of Jesus’ baptism by John:
As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”
So, in your view, Jesus looked to heaven and saw Himself descending like a dove, while Jesus practiced ventriloquism and said, from heaven, how pleased He was with Himself? That would mean that He refers to Himself as His own Son. That’s not just talking to yourself. That’s mental illness.
Prior to His ascension, (1) Jesus says three times that the (2) Holy Spirit–sent from the (3) Father–will come once He (Jesus) has ascended.
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
“When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me.
But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 about sin, because people do not believe in me; about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer.
In Romans, Paul tells us that the Holy Spirit intercedes for us:
In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.
If the Holy Spirit is just another name for Jesus and not a distinct member of the Trinity, who is He praying to?
Prior to and during His crucifixion, Jesus prays to His Father:
Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”
Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.
These verses simply make absolutely no sense from a “Jesus is all there is” viewpoint. From Trinity viewpoint, they make perfect sense. And I find it extremely interesting that, according to Matthew 26:39, Jesus will was not perfectly in line with the Father’s. He had to submit His will to the Father’s will.
Now, that’s all the evidence that I’m going to bother with. I’m not going to keep pointing out cases where only the concept of the Trinity makes sense. I’ve looked back through this thread and the “The Gospel” thread, and you haven’t addressed any of the Scriptural evidence that I’ve presented. And the main Scripture that you’ve presented were from Isaiah saying that there is only one God. We all agree on that. The Trinity is one God. The only other Scripture that you’ve provided is a snippet from Ephesians 1:11 as showing that God perhaps occasionally talks to Himself.
Your “seven questions” are a convenient way to disregard the Scriptures that you’ve been presented with, to wipe the slate clean, and to reframe the discussion in a manner of your choosing. So, I’m not going to just jump and answer them. Instead, to hijack Jesus’ technique with the Pharisees from Mark 11: I will ask you one question. Answer it and I will answer your seven questions.
How does John 14:28 make sense from a “Jesus only” perspective?