Re: The gospel
Excellent! This is some great stuff all of you are presenting! Unfortunately it’s more than I am able to read, and comment all on at the moment. Days are short for me, and now having a sick daughter has shortened my time even more. But I will write you my understanding of the first couple original replys from both Frogb0tter and MPH.
I should first apologize, frogb0tter, for borderline calling you a false prophet. I noticed it came off aggressive. Webpage text does make it difficult to convey the feelings felt, like you mentioned. It’s safe to say it’s all about how we word things; agreed?
MPH, I don’t mean for this topic to become a debate, but rather a discussion, guided by the Holy Spirit, reguarding present knowledge and understanding of the scripture we all so dearly love. I see debates being more of a “your wrong, I’m right” mentality, which I am absolutely not trying to get across. I believe we all still have much to learn about scripture. If I get close to sounding aggressive in my word choice, by all means please bring it to light! I’m glad the Holy Spirit has brought me to this site where I am able to discuss such topics as this. And not to simply discuss, but to exhort each other in whom use scripture to support their beliefs (and for those who might not use scripture). I feel that all of you have an amazing passion for Christ and I greatly appriciate it! Without the responses posted, I don’t believe I’d be able to dive into God’s Word as much as I have these past couple days.
With all that said, lets get down to our discussion at hand.
Lets first look at the definition of baptism:
Comes from the greek word baptizo which means to fully emmerse, to wash, to bathe, etc.
Second, lets look at what each of the books in the New Testament are:
Mat-John are the Biogrophies of Christ
Acts is the history of the church
1 Cor-Jude are letters to the church (which was filled with those who were already believed and saved at the time, unlike churchs today)
and Rev. is simply the revalations.
frogb0tter, you used Ephesians 5:25-26 as your supporting scripture in your belief of cleansing by a washing of the water of the Word of God.
I believe that it refers to a cleansing by a washing of the water of the Word of God. Why do I believe this?
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave Himself for it;
That He might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the Word
It’s good to understand that this scripture is to those who are already saved. It is telling them how to stay saved (there’s def. no once saved always saved mentioned anywhere in the bible. please show me if there is). This scripture does not speak of being born again anywhere in it as an added fact. Instead it says, “That he might sanctify and cleanse it…” -proceeding on- “…That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.” Which is found in v.27. These people that he writes to have already been baptized by water.
Can you show me any scripture that specifies, “being born again through the washing of the Word of God?”
1) Mark 16:16
“He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
According to Mark 16:16, you will be saved if you a) believeth and b) are baptized. Although it does not specify that you will be damned if you arn’t baptized (which could relate to those on the deathbed, or those who physically cannot be baptized).
2) 1Peter 3:20-21
“Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:”
I noticed that Graphite412 made mention of this scripture:
What Peter is saying here is that the good conscience toward God is what saves the sinner in baptism, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh (ie being washed with water).
What if I presented the idea to you like this instead? According to 1Peter 3:20, eight souls were saved by water. (We understand that it wasn’t being baptized by water, but it moves on to say in verse 20.) Baptism of/by water is now in comparison to those eight souls who were saved by water.
“Not the puttin gaway of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good sonscience toward God…”
I understand this to mean that the significance of water baptism is to show Jesus that you’re serious about the change in your life as well as showing Jesus that you believe and trust His Word for what it is. Kinda like the saying, “actions speak louder than words.”
“Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”
“And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan. And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him: And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”
“Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.”
According to these scriptures, Jesus was baptized in water. Mat and Mark both specify water rather than the Word. They both gave a more detailed description of Jesus being baptized in the Jordan River, than luke, but it does say in Luke 4:1 that Jesus was at the Jordan (where he also recieved the Holy Ghost after his water baptism which also coincides with other scriptures specifieing: repent, be baptized, to recieve the Holy Spirit -Acts 2:38-)
Am I saying that you will not receive the Holy Spirit if you are not baptized? God forbid! As a personal testamony, I received the Holy Spirit, evidence speaking with other tongues (Acts 10:45-46), before I even believed baptism was important.
In the book of John, I don’t see that it tells the story of John baptizing Jesus, but he does “bare record, saying, ‘I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it adobe upon him.’” -John 1:32
On top of all that, the scriptures in John specify him baptizing in water, not of the word:
“John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not…”
“And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.”
“And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.”
Here it says that God sent John to baptize with water, not the Word. Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit. Which leads to my next scripture for you frogb0tter and MPH – which will follow after this thought:
So if baptizing by water, rather than by the Word, is a “humanistic, man-exalting Gospel” then why did John (who was sent by God) baptize in water (specifically the Jordan River)? Further more, why did Jesus come to the Jordan to be baptized by a man, in water, if water baptism is “humanistic [and] man-exalting?”
4) 1John 5:7-8
” For there are three that testify: the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.”
“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.”
I noticed that Graphite412 made note of this earlier as well. When I searched through different versions of the bible I came across the NIV and KJV which seem to be slightly different. I don’t remember which, but one of the two had either takin’ out scripture, or added. Either way, neither taking or adding to the Word of God is apporpriate. Nonetheless I have this thought for all of you:
In heaven there are 3 that bare record:
1)the Father 2)the Word 3)the Holy Ghost -which are one-
In earth there are 3 that bear witness:
1)spirit 2)water 3)blood -which agree in one-
I noticed this scripture not long before I headed of to my public library to write to you all, so in all honesty I’m not sure what this is all about, and I will have to take it to my spiritual leader in regards to this scripture. I do feel that there’s a huge point the Word is making in these verses though.
5)As for you questions MPH…
ok lol, just thought of something. Jesus said the thief on the cross would be with him in paradise, and evidently, he was not baptized, but we don’t have his entire history, just the end result of his poor life choices.
The thief didn’t have to be baptized because the Old Testamate Mosaic Laws were still in effect until Jesus rose from the dead from my understanding. I do not have scripture that supports this personal opinion of mine so I must make it known that my answer to MPH’s question here is strictly opinion.
many receive Christ on their deathbed, and they end up in Heaven, or do they? They of course, have no chance of being baptized physically in that state of being. So in that sense is it necessary? Do we not enter the Kingdom if that “requirement” is not met?
I’m sure we all can agree that whether they make it to heaven or not, that is all up to our Heavenly Father. Jesus is the only one who knows our hearts, and it’s not our place to say who goes to heaven and who doesn’t. You can have a saint who lived their lives for Jesus better than any of us, have them turn around and sin once, die right after, before they had a chance to repent of that sin, and find themselves in H E double hockey sticks. It’s not my place to say, and nor is it anyone elses except for our LORD JESUS.
In conclution it is important that someone is baptized in water in the name of Jesus if they physically can. If it is impossible to be baptized in water, then so be it. That is between that person and Jesus. Nonetheless if Jesus was baptized in water, then as a christian we are obligated to be baptized. I’m sure we’ve all heard to be a christian is to be Christ-like. Why wouldn’t you get baptized in water (just like he did in the Jordan) if you were trying to be Christ-like, unless, like I mentioned before, there is no possible way you can get baptized?
You guys have many great topics coming up and I wish to be able to reply to them as soon as I can! Keep praying everyone! Hope to be back on tomorrow!
Please pray for my 2 year old daughter! She’s been waking up every morning with temps of 102+ every morning this past week.
Love you all!